Therapy or Clinical Supervision: Two Different Takes

Lorain Moorehead, LCSW, PMH-C, EMDR Certified Consultant & Clinical Supervisor, sits down with Dr. Laurie Bruce, clinical psychologist (25+ years), mindfulness coach, host of "From Both Sides of the Couch," in a cross-show conversation recorded for both podcasts.

They unpack the gap between CEUs and real clinical consultation, what happens when a client triggers something personal in session, and the barriers that keep therapists from finding their own therapist. If you found our episode on EMDR consultation requirements useful, this conversation goes further into the blurry territory between supervision, consultation, and personal therapy.

Timestamps:
 0:00 — The problem with supervision ending at licensure
 1:14 — How other countries require ongoing consultation and the US doesn't
 2:16 — Why CEUs should partially be replaced with consultation hours
 3:16 — Learning a new modality means starting over, and why that demands supervision
 11:04 — Lorain's experience with EMDR consultation requirements
 12:47 — Dr. Bruce on DBT consultation teams, RO-DBT, and DART training
 17:26 — The deep self-exploration required in IFS training
 18:29 — The blurry line between therapy, supervision, and consultation
 22:00 — Naming it as a form of informed consent and emotional regulation
 23:39 — Administrative vs. clinical supervision: why they're not the same
 27:10 — Barriers to therapists seeking their own therapy
 34:06 — Structured vs. organic supervision: two different philosophies
 42:01 — Why the intake process is the clinical work, not just a formality
 43:23 — Individual vs. peer consultation: the role of trust and vulnerability
 45:09 — How to find a therapist when you're a therapist yourself
 49:32 — Dr. Bruce's upcoming virtual community for therapists and caregivers
 52:05 — Where to find Lorain's work on perfectionism, burnout, and anxiety

Episode Highlights:
 Supervision is treated as a finish line tied to licensure instead of an ongoing clinical need.
 Several countries require monthly consultation to maintain licensure, while the US relies on CEU hours alone.
 Specializing in a new modality puts a clinician back at square one, requiring the same level of supervision as early training.
 Administrative supervision and clinical supervision serve different functions and should not be conflated.
 Naming what is happening in the room functions as both informed consent and a regulation tool.
 The biggest barriers to therapists seeking their own therapy are financial, the conditioning to be the expert, and the difficulty of finding someone outside their professional circle.
 A strong intake is not a formality. It is where the clinical work and the supervisee's core skills are actually built.

Host: Lorain Moorehead, LCSW, PMH-C, EMDR Certified Consultant & Clinical Supervisor. Private practice supporting high-achieving adults and therapists with perfectionism, burnout, anxiety, and irritability.

This episode covers topics relevant to CE/CEU for LCSW, LMHC, LPC, LMFT, NCC. Free CEU available for Arizona licensure through the Board of Behavioral Health Examiners.

Subscribe for weekly clinical training you can use in your next session.

Website: https://lorainmoorehead.com
Instagram: @selfcareapist
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#therapist #mentalhealth #continuingeducation #CEU #LCSW #LPC #LMFT #clinicalsupervision #EMDR #DBT

The Self Careapist Therapist Podcast is a biweekly conversation with Lorain Moorehead, LCSW a therapist in private practice.  With guests ranging from expert psychologists, therapists, researchers and authors, each episode offers a deep dive and keeps listeners from intern to advanced supervisor  in mind while dropping gems and aha moments for everyone who loves to learn! If you love learning and want to keep track of some future learning opportunities, grab your personal curriculum here!

If you liked this episode, feel free to subscribe and leave a review! Your support helps us be a top mental health podcast and resource.  See you next week!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Self-Cherapist Therapist. I'm Lorraine Moorhead and this is a therapist-to-therapist podcast for mental health professionals who want practical, evidence-based skills that they can actually use in session. Each week I'm joined by leading experts in the field as we talk interventions, modalities, client populations, clinical supervision, and sustainable self-care. The kind that helps you do meaningful work without burning out. If you're a therapist, counselor, social worker, psychologist, or graduate student looking for real continuing education, you're in the right place. This morning we have kind of a fun episode where two podcast hosts are going to be together and we're going to be just ping-ponging questions and answers back and forth. So I am so happy you'll be joining us for this conversation. Myself, Lorraine Moorhead, and Dr. Lori Bruce.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Hi, everybody, so happy to be here. Today we're going to be talking all about supervision.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Yeah, so before we get into our backgrounds and introductions, I thought we would just start with kind of a hot take and anything controversial we have on our minds. And so my controversial hot take is going to be the idea that supervision stops after licensure.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Absolutely. That we focus, we put so much energy and attention into supervision when we're going through grad school, we're doing our practicums, we're doing our internships, we're um, and then we're, you know, getting licensed and our postdoc year and all of these things. Uh and then how is it that miraculously we get this piece of paper that says you're officially independently licensed and the supervision just stops?

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Yeah. Yeah, it's a race to get to an arbitrary finish line. And I think I read that in Australia and Europe, they don't have the same ceasing of supervision. And in in some of the places, they require ongoing consultation that they prove they've attended ongoing consultation once a month to maintain their licensure. I know. I know it's so interesting how our perspectives differ.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Yeah, I think that is a fabulous idea. I would fully support that. I think there would obviously be a lot of pushback around that. The time, the energy, the money would absolutely be a challenge. And at the same time, when you think about what we're required to do with, you know, every state is different, but we have CEUs, continuing education, we have to do after licensure every year to renew our license. And I personally in the state of Ohio, we have to do 33 hour CEUs over two years, certain in ethics, certain in suicide, certain in domestic violence, and all these things. But no clinical supervision. I'd rather it be like 15 hours of continuing ed and then, you know, 15 hours of supervision or consultation. To me, that would be so much more valuable.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Oh, it's so interesting that you say that. I love that idea. I was just sharing with a colleague that at a certain point I liked to do a wide variety of CEUs and just hear an overview of a lot of different things. And now I really like to explore consultation even for myself. Like if I learn a new modality, really deep dive into it with consultation and one-to-one, and I think it's valuable at any level. So I think that would be a really incredible idea and a movement.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Yeah. Yeah, because when you think about it, once we've achieved all the goals of licensure, which are so broad, then typically, once we start getting our feet wet a little bit, we do want to start to specialize in some kind of modality or some kind of population. And so it's in that specialization that we really need more supervision, more consultation. And we'll talk a little bit about kind of the nuances between therapy, supervision, and consultation. There's so many ways that we can continue to grow and improve as clinicians, but when we're starting a whole new specialty, we're kind of going back to the beginning. And it seems like it makes perfect sense that we should be required to have some kind of supervision as we're learning this new modality or specialization.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Yeah, I love that take. Um, can I just ask you, Lori, to tell us a little bit about yourself and your background and how you've gotten to be so passionate about supervision?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Sure, absolutely. So I am Dr. Lori Bruce, I am a clinical psychologist. I also call myself a mindfulness coach because I do both uh individual therapy and coaching. Um, I have been a psychologist for over 25 years, and I also host a podcast, which is called From Both Sides of the Couch. And there I talk about all things related to mental health. Okay, great. As long as it's not coming in on your side, that's all that matters. Sorry. Um I'm also the host of a podcast called From Both Sides of the Couch, where I talk about all things related to mental health as both the perspective of a psychologist as well as a client in my own therapy. I try to be very transparent with my clients and with my audience that I personally feel like our own psychotherapy is the biggest gift that we can give ourselves. And as a therapist who is responsible for helping and supporting the emotional health of others, I think it is incumbent upon us as therapists to be in our own therapy.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Oh, I love that. I think that's going to be such an important piece that we touch on today, too. Yeah, and so if you're coming from both sides of the couch, I'm so happy to get to meet you this way. Uh I'm Lorraine Moorhead. I've been licensed as a clinical social worker for 18 years. And over the last few years, I've really found that I love to also support clinicians and interns in their supervision and their clinical development. That passion started because I think for a lot of us, and we'll talk more about this too, we focused so much on the hours that we needed, like we mentioned earlier. And the way that supervision, clinical supervision to get those hours was structured, sometimes that's all we got was just checking off those hours, some ethical considerations as well. Over the last few years, I've really leaned into clinical supervision, helping associate level licenses advance their clinical practices, helping fully licensed people advance their clinical practice, and even working with interns. And I think what's really interesting, I feel like we're at a turning point now with supervision where we people can access the support that they need, and that can look how they want it to look. Early on in my career, you were with the supervisor that you were hired to work with, and I remember feeling like there wasn't really I didn't, it never crossed my mind that there would be access to other supports out there. And so I think it's really neat with the way things are shifting in our field that those supports are available and they can look different ways. So, with that, I also host the self-care pist therapist podcast. We really deep dive these clinical topics that I'm so passionate about. Uh, we talk about modalities and approaches that we can work with with our clients.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yes, awesome. Um so as we were talking about before, this uh as we were talking before about the fact that we go through all these steps, we get licensed, and then in a way we go backwards by learning a new uh specialty. Is there a specialty or an area that you learned about that allowed you the opportunity to do more consultation and supervision for yourself?

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Yeah. The first time I got to really explore those topics was through EMDR. Uh and EMDR is interesting because you train and then during the basic training, you're required to do 10 hours of consultation. So they bake it in right from the beginning. And then after that, if you decide to move toward certification, you do 20 more hours. And then if you decide to yourself become a consultant, you do 20 more hours. And so I had my own um sessions with client permission, of course, viewed and uh I troubleshot them with my clinical consultant. And then I had the sessions where I was consulting someone, viewed, and uh, we would troubleshoot them with a clinical a different clinical consultant as well. And so that was really it was such a meaningful time, and some of those were group and some of those were one-to-one, but it was such a meaningful time to really explore things that A, I didn't fully know yet about EMDR, but B um really look at things that I might have been doing in my practice that I hadn't caught, period, even before EMDR was integrated. So I think it's just so much fun to be able to have some of those conversations. How about you? Was there a time that you um were able to explore your own work through consultation?

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Yeah, so um my original training is in DBT or dialectical behavior therapy, and a huge component of DBT is being part of a consultation team. And so it's it's a requirement, it's mandatory in DBT. Not mandatory, but it's strongly advised that that is how you do DBT work. Um so that consultation style of weekly um talking about difficult cases, brainstorming, getting ideas from other people, I would say that's kind of at the core of my training. Um, I also am not certified in RODBT, but RODBT also has a similar model. And so I was also part of a RO consultation group. Um I've been part of a personal consultation group with five other psychologists where we meet and have met monthly for 20 years, 22 years, I think. Um and so that has been a huge part of my personal growth. Um but the most recent training that I'm working towards a certification in is called DART or developmental and relational trauma therapy. And in that, a huge part of it is learning our own trauma stories. Um, they have this whole thing about doing the DART assessment where you go through your whole childhood. What's your most negative memory with your father, your most positive memory with your father, negative memory with your mother, positive, et cetera? And so it's a very challenging assessment. It's 16 pages long. And you use yourself as, and I think EMDR is like this too, in a way, I believe, that you're sort of using your own stories, your own traumas and challenges to learn the treatment. Um, and there's a lot of role play role plays and experiential exercises that you're doing. And so that has been profoundly helpful for me and more of the deeper trauma-based work.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Yeah. Uh what what how who developed art?

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Um, two psychologists, one by the name of Dr. Rick Butts, and the other one is Jan Bergstrom. And it is based on some of the work of Pia Melody. And um so it really talks about, you know, that we all have traumatic experiences. Pia Melody defines trauma, I think, as anything in any experience in which the needs of the child were not met. Um that's not a direct quote, but the idea is we all experience forms of trauma because our parents were not perfect, and we as parents are not perfect, and part of our um healing process comes from understanding that, understanding what our birth rights are, that we're born valuable, we're born vulnerable, we're born um and all of these different birth rights that we have, and how unfortunately, just because there's no such thing as a perfect parent, not all of our needs and rights were met.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Yeah, perfect parent or perfect match, right? Like perfect temperament match, even if you have a parent checking all the boxes, it doesn't mean it's a fit. Uh, that's so interesting that it's based on Pia Medley's work. I'm in Arizona and we have a treatment center here that's based on her work. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yes, and so it's my understanding that both Dr. Butts and Dr. Bergstrom were uh part of that. Uh years and years ago, were part of that training. And then together, it's my understanding that they kind of created their own model with some shifts. There's some IFS and parts work associated with it. Um it's a very cool model. Cool. It's a very interesting um model that has helped me both personally and professionally.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Yeah, I love that. It's uh interesting that you brought up IFS because that's my current uh one that I'm consulting on too. I finished level one at the beginning of the year, and so I've started for you. I know, I've started doing some one-to-one, but it it feels like there's a great intersection here that we can explore a little more because IFS too. I mean, that that level one training is a hundred hours um over the course, I mean, it's four we four solid weeks spread out over the over over a few months. And during that time, I mean, you can get the principles by reading the book, but so much of what you're doing in that training is self-exploration. Yes. And it sounds like with Dart you have had a similar experience.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

What do you think in consulting on a modality like these? What do you think is the line between therapy and consultation? And how have you found or integrated those two pieces?

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Such a such a great and nuanced topic. Um I feel like it is a very, very fine line where we're moving from consultation with supervision. And for me, both as a supervisor and a supervisee, uh, the biggest value that I have is about transparency and naming it. So that if I'm in a session with a supervisee and uh I'm teaching elements. Uh for me, I typically supervise with the DBT lens because that's the one I've been doing the longest, the one I have most confidence in. Um I'm uh teaching elements of skill development and understanding clients through a dialectical lens and a bio psychosocial lens. And when we're doing that, I might name it and I might say something like, okay, I'm putting on my teacher hat for a moment so I can teach you a couple skills that might be useful for your client. And then, as say my supervisee starts to maybe express some anxiety about being so direct or being so teachery with their client, and I might ask them a question: where do you think that anxiety is coming from? How do you make sense of your own anxiety? And then I might name it and say, okay, for a moment, I'm just gonna put on my therapist hat and ask us to explore what's coming up for you as we talk about your anxiety. So for me, I think it's a dance where there are gonna be elements that are more therapy-like, and there are gonna be more elements that are supervision. Um, and when I'm with my peers, is what I think of as consultation. I don't know if that's how you think of it, but consultation is when I'm with other psychologists and therapists. Um, and even in those rooms, I might say, okay, I'm totally being a therapist here in this moment, but have you asked yourself this question? So for me, I think the lines are very blurred, and it's really important that we're just naming it as we're going, stepping into those different roles because I think it's impossible. I personally think it's impossible to say, I'm not gonna go there. Um, we're only going to do this part of it. I feel like we miss out on so much to be very um rigid in our boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Yeah, I I think that's really well said. I think I have so many thoughts on this. One that's coming up, well, one that I really want to start by saying I love how you name the part. And I feel like that could be really helpful. I mean, that's good, a good use of your tools as a therapist to be able to say, this is the hat I'm putting on. If you'll if it's it's like you're getting informed consent almost to go in one direction or another.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Yeah, absolutely. And and naming it, this is a part of mindfulness training, is naming it is a regulation skill. Whenever we're naming whatever it is we're observing, we're actually doing some regulation strategy. So I'm real big on naming what is occurring in this moment because our brains like that, and it helps us to kind of settle in a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Yeah, that that's a great tidbit right there. I think that's so true. By settling into what direction you're going, you're regulating your system and also helping to. I used to have a professor that would say, Give me your hand and guide me through your paper. Don't drag me through the forest that is your paper. But we're extending that hand to gently guide. Yes. Yeah, so one of the other thoughts that was coming up for me was that you're you're so right about how it is the combination of the different roles that makes supervision what it is. And I think a great privilege that I have for not being an agency supervisor, sometimes I am, I do wear that hat at times, is that I've the the critique I've heard from supervisors who are working from the practice and they're also a a manager, is that they don't feel like it's appropriate to be going into their uh supervisees' personal. Issues as much. Yes. And so I think a great privilege is having fewer roles with a person because then you're open to going in different directions on the journey in a way you might not feel comfortable if you are their manager as well or the admin person as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's such, such, such a good point. Yes. There's a difference between your administrative supervisor and your clinical supervisor. And this is why I'm so passionate about therapists having their own therapist, because I really do believe that as a my therapist can play the role of that more consultant/slash clinical supervisor. If I had a difficult case that was very activating or triggering for me, um, I can't go to the practice owner, the one who is responsible for my paychecks and my productivity and all and my, you know, my job. I can't go to that administrative supervisor with, wow, this client really triggered this childhood memory for me. But I can go to my therapist. I can absolutely talk to my therapist about how hard, difficult, the all the emotions.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

You can go to your psychotherapist with a clinical consultation in a way that you wouldn't go to your practice owner with an uh issue of transference or an emotional reaction, maybe to a client. I think that is so important. What do you do you have any theories about what prevents people from seeking out their psychotherapy in this role? Is that something that you've ever touched on in your podcast?

SPEAKER_01 23:58

I haven't, but it's a great question. Um, and I'd be curious if for those therapists who are listening to this podcast, it would be really helpful to share that either, you know, in a YouTube comment or um, you know, wherever you're seeing this podcast as a therapist. What prevents you from engaging in your own therapy if you're not currently in your own therapy? I suspect some of it is financial, um, some of it is the time, you know, really making it a priority. Um some newer therapists may not be aware that you absolutely can use your own therapy as that clinical supervision and why it's important not only for your personal growth, but your professional growth. So it's sort of like not thinking about therapy as a luxury, like a massage, but thinking of your therapy as truly part of your own professional development, that you may really not be able to go that deeply if you have an administrative supervisor. Um what else? What do you think what else might get in the way of folks?

SPEAKER_00 25:18

I had a little thought flicker in earlier. Um, I've told you that I am super uh interested in RODBT right now. And I love one of the elements I love of DBT is A, I think it's a great foundational set of skills for people coming up. I love to open with some training in that for someone just coming out of grad school. But the other thing I love about them is the consultation. And with that, it feels like what I and I'm not as immersed in it as you, so you correct me if I'm getting any of these details wrong. But something that has stood out to me about it is that it feels like a very humble gathering where there's not necessarily a leader to the consultation groups or an expert, and it allows space for each person to come as they are, share what's on their mind. It expects that you'll have some responses in the work that you're doing with clients, and it allows sort of a support. Does that sound like I'm getting it right?

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Yeah, I think that's very possible. What I will say in the RO consultation group that I used to be part of, I'm no longer I'm in private practice now, and I used to work at an agency, a hospital setting. Um, and in that setting, when we had our RODBT group, we did have a leader because he was the one who was sort of the expert in RO, and there was definitely an element of none of us know this. What what even is this? So he was kind of leading and teaching. But yes, I do believe in sort of when everybody is trained, the idea is to have it more open because we're we're practicing even in our consultation group that sense of openness and discomfort. We're not looking to the expert um to give us the answers.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Yeah. So where I was sort of thinking about that is that there's maybe there's some conditioning that happens when we're coming out of grad school and starting in the profession where it feels like we are supposed to be that expert, and it doesn't leave space to also need an expert.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Yeah. So true. So true. Yeah, I'd really be curious what other therapists say, you know, um, about why, what the challenge is. I'll also say that um we are certainly getting better with the stigma of being in therapy. And at the same time, when you start to get to know therapists in your community, it's hard to find someone for you for them to be your therapist who's also part of your community. Um that, you know, I I'm in Cincinnati. I know a lot of therapists in Cincinnati. So I can't go see my friend. I can't go see somebody that I I know on a certain level. So finding someone who's good, who you feel good about, who's also a therapist, but not overlapping in your community too much is, I believe, a real challenge.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Yeah, I think that's so true. And maybe a barrier that we see, I mean, in person will continue to be a challenge for that if you want to sit down with someone local. But as the compacts go into effect, it might be more possible to seek out a person who practices in a way that speaks to each of us, that it does have that little bit of a geographical barrier as well.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Yes, agreed 100%. That's one of the gifts, I think, of telehealth and getting comfortable with telehealth.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Yeah, but I think you just spoke to an issue that a lot of people have. Like if you are a therapist who seeks therapy, who's who meets up for consultations, who attends trainings or who attends networking, then it can be challenging because of course the same people, though, you know, it'll be the same pool of people who do those things. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

Yeah. And a smaller city, you know, obviously in a huge city, Los Angeles, Chicago, Boston, you know, there's it's different. But in our smaller, media smaller cities like Cincinnati is, you kind of know, you know, the names of of a a lot of, at least within like psychologists. I don't know all the social workers by any means. Um, but I I know the names of a lot of psychologists in the area. And it's which is a benefit to being in a small city for so many years, but also is a challenge when you're looking for your own therapist.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Yeah, I I think that's so true.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

So um so one of the things we've talked about so far is kind of like that that um zone and how consultation and supervision and therapy can blend together. Um, as a supervisor, do you tend to like to have more structure, an agenda, um, even you know, informed consent forms? Like, how do you think about your role as a supervisor? And how much structure do you really like around your supervision sessions?

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Yeah, great question. I like I'm I tend to be on the more structured end of things, just in general. I think it helps with supervisor supervision or consultation. I like to go over an informed consent with the person that I'm working with because it allows us an opportunity to be on the same page with expectations. I also developed a little form that goes out to everyone that allows them to set goals almost like a treatment plan. Nice. Yeah, that where we know what we're working toward. Um something that social work schools I think do really well. I've gotten to see what a lot of different schools do for their interns, and social work schools do um something called a learning agreement, and it's like a contract where they where you develop it with your the person you're supervising, but it hits some target areas, and you're able to think of different um ways that they could learn, like what the target will be in your setting, what and and according to what the intern wants, what they want to get more of. And then you'll even be able to list out a few different ways that they will get that lesson. Like it could be a read this book, it could be listen to this podcast, it could be um try this skill with your clients, a lot like a treatment plan, and that way you can really track how they're doing, and I love that. Not all schools or even all disciplines do that. I I actually haven't seen it outside of social work, but I love the idea of integrating some of that in because I think sometimes people just want the resource, you know, it they don't necessarily need to be consulted on a piece. Sometimes they want to know where they can go to get it. And so by integrating a plan like that with the folks that we're working with, I think it can help them know what steps they can be taking too. Like they don't have to be sitting in front of me, they kind of get that the benefit of those resources or uh ping-ponging back and forth with those ideas to be able to do their self-study in different ways.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Yeah, that's so fantastic and probably helps with a little bit of the imposter syndrome that we all experience as a new therapist or even as an old therapist, um, you know, those feelings can pop up every now and then. So giving them a lot of tools and structure and resources and and asking them what their goals are as a supervisee is is so important. So that is very cool that you that you have that.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Yeah. And then um as much as people have their own notions about evaluation, I think some sort of process where they can provide feedback to me and I can provide feedback to them and we can realign, add more goals, change ones that have shifted for them as they've developed. I think all of that is really interesting. When I do um clinical consultations, sometimes it's in a shorter span. Like if they have a goal they're working towards, sometimes it'll be a month-long container. And then that looks a little bit different because it's like one goal that we might be working on or integrating. But for the longer-term agreements, I think it's vulnerable and helpful. Uh, I found it to be those two things when we have some of these systems in place. Yeah.

unknown 35:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

How about for you? What's your approach to all of this?

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Um I love and admire that you have those um systems and structures in place. When I have supervised students in universities, the universities have a lot of those templates and forms and everything that we need to fill out, which I think is great. Um, but I personally don't love them. Um I hate having to say on a scale of one to five, you know, and actually give a ranking and a number that is very painful for me. I don't like trying to summarize very complicated issues into a number. And I'm an overthinker, an over-explainer, and so just that's very taxing for me. So in the agency setting where I've had to do that, I've done it but hated it. As an independent person in private practice, I don't do that because I don't like it. And if nobody's making me do it, then I don't do it. Yeah. Um I do try to have those discussions about expectations. That was a key word you said. And so, yes, making sure that I'm managing expectations up front and talking about the dual roles and really getting clarification on what the supervisee is looking for from me. Those are probably my highest priorities. Um, and then my only agenda as a supervisor is really making sure, particularly if they're a very new therapist, I really lean into the intake and making sure that the new therapist, the supervisee, um really has good strong intake and diagnostic and rapport-building skills. Because I feel like once you can achieve those goals, your ability to be a good therapist just builds from there.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Oh, I love that. I I I agree so much about the that intake. It's such good practice to start there, but also you're building so many skills in that and sort of with the with the uh support of a structure, knowing that you want to get through certain questions. I think that that can feel really comfortable as a little security blanket or a little support, but then you're weaving in your these other skills, these curious questions, these moments of um resonance, you know, these little uh resources we're big on that in social work, but these little uh, oh, do you need this support that's outside of us, you know? And I think I agree so much that it's such a great place to feel strong. I think sometimes it can be regarded as something we're getting out of the way so that the work can start, but I I I think it's such a critical skill and tool to be really confident in.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Yeah, that's so interesting. And I agree. I do think a lot of people think of it as um, let's just get this out of the way so then the work can start. And I have a very opposite perspective, which is no, the moment that you have that initial contact, even if it's through an email, that's the work starting. They may not be officially your client, but they are absolutely evaluating how quickly are they responding to me? Are they warm? Are they friendly? You know, do they use emojis or exclamation exclamation points, like how professional versus warm are they? Um, right from the beginning. And there and clients are projecting things onto you before you've ever even sat down in the room together. So that to me is a really it is so rich in terms of teaching skills. Um, and I would say I could spend half of this supervision year focusing on the intake and and that process of of doing a good intake.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Oh wow, that's so interesting. That might be a future episode collab over here.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Yes, love it, love it. I could talk about this stuff all day long.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Yeah, yeah, totally. Um how do you see the difference between individual versus peer consultations? Or are there anything that you do differently or the same in one versus the other?

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Hmm, that's a great question. Um, some of this is my this is none of this is research-based, this is just my own experience. Um my personality is I'm more of an introvert. Um I'm slow to warm up. And so I need a lot of time and trust and repeated experiences that this is an emotionally safe environment for me to be vulnerable and for me to do the deeper work. So I personally feel like it's easier and quicker for me to do some of the deeper work one-on-one. It takes longer for me in a group to do some of that deeper, more vulnerable work. I think there's tremendous value in that group work to know you're not alone, to know that other therapists are experiencing the same thing. Um, but for me, like I am much more likely to cry and to make connections and to really, really let myself be the ugly snot crying. I'm gonna do that in my therapy more likely than I would in in my consultation group. And I love the women, I love them. They're my dearest. I've as I said, I've been friends with them forever. Um, but it's just kind of my personality that I'm gonna do the deeper work one-on-one.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Yeah. What do you think? You know, on that note, how did you do you have any ideas for therapists that are looking for their own therapist and what what's important to hold for a therapist to be finding that person that they can do that with?

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Yeah. Uh such a good question. I think for me, a lot of it was about who has a really strong reputation in our community for being a good therapist. And it was also really important to me that I knew that this therapist saw other therapists. I really do. I feel that that is a specialization in and of itself because of all the multiple hats and roles, and um it's so nuanced, and I feel privileged that I'm in a position to have been able to find that for myself. But if you are a therapist in your community, ask within maybe your um local Facebook therapist group, um, who's the therapist who sees therapists? You know, is there anyone here who has done this work? Um again, my own bias, but I would want to see someone who's been doing therapy for a long time because I do feel like we get better and better and better in time. We're like wine. It's not a given that if we've been a therapist for, you know, 15, 20 years that we are good. It doesn't go that way. But I do feel that really excellent therapists have been doing it for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Yeah. Yeah, I I definitely relate to that. For you, is modality important? Have you wanted someone that does modalities that you're interested in or that you um also are expert in?

SPEAKER_01 43:44

That hasn't been important to me at all. Um, because I feel like we can all benefit from different modalities. Would I see a like a true psychoanalytic therapist? No, um I couldn't do that. I couldn't just lay on the couch and have somebody behind me like writing notes. I could not do that. That's not how I work and not what I need. But no, if my therapist were particularly trained in IFS or RO or, you know, something where I'm not certified or heavily trained in, I would appreciate a new perspective. So for me, that wouldn't be important, but I can see why it might be for somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

Yeah, I can see the value in having gone through the modalities that I am doing. I think clients really appreciate that too. And I want to hold an honor that it's sort of two different things. I I might not in that moment, when I'm seeking out that person, be looking for the really deep long-term vulnerable. You know, I'm I'm sort of still having my student hat on. So I think, you know, it really there are a lot of different options, and it you there is an opportunity to really self-explore with what am I hoping to do here? You know, what do I really want to want to get out of this?

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Yeah. What are my goals? What are what do I want to achieve? Why am I spending the money, the time, the energy? Like, what is it that I'm hoping to experience, even if it's not necessarily accomplish? What am I hoping to experience? And I think that will guide you then on do I really want to seek out somebody whose role is going to be really strictly supervision of this particular modality? Or do I really right now at this phase of my life want a therapist who can also wear multiple hats?

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Yeah, I I think that's a great question. And one I wouldn't have really thought thought about differentiating before. Um, are you a therapist that sees therapists?

SPEAKER_01 46:01

I am, yes, yes. It's one of my favorite things to do. And um, I know we didn't talk about this before, but I'm in the process of launching a community because I do feel like it's really, really hard to find um a to to have find the time and find the space to be able to address these types of issues. So I'm looking to build a community of not just therapists, but also physicians and and people who are in the business of caring for others and the weight that that puts on us, the the pressure, the exhaustion, the stress, and how can we support each other so that we can find passion and energy for our work again? Because I think if we don't make our own mental health a priority, the work will kill us emotionally and physically if we don't attend to ourselves. And so that's kind of my new passion is I'm gonna be launching this group hopefully within the next few months.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Oh, that's so exciting. Will people be able to join from all over or will it be local to Ohio?

SPEAKER_01 47:18

Yes, it will be all over. It's gonna be a virtual group that's going to have weekly touch points of both live conversations as well as recordings and videos and homework exercises and you know, giving that accountability and the support. Um, and so yeah, it'll be all virtual, and I look forward to connecting to um therapists and other healthcare providers through throughout the world. Doesn't even have to be, I was gonna say the United States, but doesn't even have to be US. It can be throughout the world.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

So interesting. Where can people find more information about that if that is something that they've that their souls have been yearning for?

SPEAKER_01 48:00

Yes, thank you so much for asking. I will be launching within the next um, hopefully by the end of summer, early fall is kind of my target date. And um if you want to follow me and that process, you can find me at my podcast from both sides of the couch. Um, I'm on YouTube and all the socials, and also on my website, which is dr laurybrews.com.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Okay, that's so awesome.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

And how about for you? Any projects right now that you're working on or you would like your my audience to know about you?

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Yeah, I think um I'd love to connect through my podcast, Self-Care Pist Therapist, as well. Um, I work in my clinical practice with a lot of high-achiev adults, a lot of professionals, and of course, with therapists. Um, I work a lot with perfectionism, burnout, and some of the symptoms that we see with those, like anxiety and uh irritability and panic, just some of those things that creep up if we aren't addressing some of the things that you're gonna be speaking life into in your community. So um I also do consultation and um I I'm experimenting with different ways to really tap into that clinical piece. I think sometimes there are some great people out there for the ethics pieces, you know, for the one one-off consults, and I think but I think we yearn for just that clinical knowledge, you know, and so I'm really aiming to continue to support those folks through my podcast and through individual meetings as well. And folks can find me at my website, LorraineMorehead.com, and all the links that they need will be there as well. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Well, this has been so enjoyable, Lorraine. I really sincerely hope that we get to do this again because um with all of these topics, we're just kind of scratching the surface. So it's um it's really nice. I love and could talk with other therapists all day long. So I hope that we're able to do this again.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

Yeah, thank you so much for joining me. And like you mentioned earlier, if there are topics that you're listening to at home that feel like they could really use more uh time and attention folks out there, let us know because we would love a great excuse to jump back on the mic together.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Well put. Well done. Thank you so much. Thanks so much, Lori. Have a good one. Thank you for listening to the Self-Cherapist Therapist. I hope today's conversation gave you insight, clarity, or a tool you can take straight into your clinical work. If you found this episode helpful, be sure to subscribe to the show on YouTube and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It helps other therapists find the show and keeps these conversations going. Until next time, keep learning, stay curious, and take care of yourself too.